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All trades are final? Not for MindArk it seems...

Discussion in 'Entropia News' started by Tass, Sep 4, 2014.

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  1. Sep 4, 2014 #1
    Tass

    Tass Administrator

    If all trades were final two player-owned Land Areas on Next Island would not have been removed from the game by MindArk. Here's the story.

    Once upon a time, to be precise, some years ago, @EnzoMarius provided help and various services to Next Island. As a kind of payment for the services two Land Area deeds were given to the player, on behalf of NI CEO David Post by NI employee @Meg (and as the question was asked: @NEVERDIE never had anything to do with this).

    The Land Areas were Ajoite Game Reserve and Kyanite Game Reserve I, relatively small LAs located near Ajote Ridge TP respectively Kyanite Lake TP. Both estates existed on from the launch of Next Island in December 2010, both bugged from the beginning. According to our information the bug was minor, just something like a "link" missing between the actual estate and the terminal to control the estates, an according fix was added in the development environment but for unknown reason snever made into the game.

    The Land Areas have been bugged for years, attempts by Marius to get them fixed for example by filing support cases were futile. At this point it's worth mentioning that MindArk have asked him to contact David Post and/or @NEVERDIE to resolve the issue but never they asked him not to sell or use the Land Areas.

    Meanwhile the entire staff of Next Island was let go, the project obviously abandoned by the owner David Post, several initiatives to resume development from within the EU community were fruitless, and Next Island not considered a planet anymore by MindArk "but an outpost in Entropia Universe". Obviously MindArk also took over the Next Island website and ask potential players to create an account for Planet Calypso instead.

    After years Marius decided to sell the deeds/estates and they were bought by @narfi who was fully aware of the situation (deeds bugged, support cases futile) and considered the purchase a high risk investment.

    After filing support cases the new owner Narfi was told by MindArk that the deeds were "never approved for sale" and was advised to contact David Post to clarify the situation. As everyone remotely interested in the situation can conclude, trying to find a solution with David Post must be doomed to fail, as mentioned before he seems to have completely abandoned Next Island and no further interest in the project.

    A little bit later, some months ago it was reported that people were told by MindArk that a overhaul of Next Island is scheduled for the near future.

    By the way, it's quite shameless to cultivate the advantages of controlling NI to some extent at least, such as asking potential NI players to create a Planet Calypso account, but at the same time avoid the disadvantages, such as sending people to David Post when problems occur.

    [​IMG]
    ​
    About 2 months ago Narfi was offering the deeds for sale to raise capital for another investment in Entropia Universe, clearly indicating that the estates are bugged. After further discussing the situation with a potential buyer the deeds changed owners again, the new owner named "Fatal" too considering the purchase a high risk investment, basically a gamble on the future development of Next Island, and as everyone remotely interested in Next Island knows the future of that planet is not exactly "brighter than ever"...

    Lather, rinse, repeat, Fatal filed support cases to get the estates fixed and was told by MindArk that the deeds were "not approved for sale" and that the former owner was told that the deeds were "not approved for sale" and advised to clarify the situation with David Post and/or the former owner. And to avoid further confusion attached to the deeds and estates MindArk removed them from the game.

    Now, what's that? There were estates in game that might have worked at some point, then got bugged. About one and a half years ago I was exploring Next Island and saw signs of the bugged estates in game myself. Obviously these estates did exist or still exist in game, obviously the according deeds were also existing in game, and were sold twice. Then MindArk all of a sudden removed them from game!?!

    For more than a decade players have been told that "all trades are final", meaning an in-game trade cannot be reversed, no matter the circumstances. For years the oh so great investment opportunities in Entropia Universe have been heavily advertised. Now, it seems not all trades are final and investments of thousands of dollars can be smashed by MindArk without thought.

    [​IMG]​

    To make it perfectly clear: Removing the deeds/estates is a completely unjustified and short-sighted action by MindArk, it is outrageous. By doing so MindArk does punish players for fails clearly in the responsibility of MindArk and damages the trust of current and potential investors in Entropia Universe.

    There can be only one solution: Giving back the deeds to the last owner and fix the estates so they can be used as supposed, not in year or a month but now. All trades must be final, if items are circulating in the game that were "not approved for sale", then it's too late, they have been sold. But it is within MindArk's responsibility that these items found their way into the game, it is MindArk's task to clarify why this happened, and it is MindArk's task to approach the one ultimately responsible for releasing the items into the game and it is the responsibility of MindArk and the other party to solve the issue between them. Players cannot be held responsible for the initial issue, the consequences and at last for trading with items in game.

    So, MindArk, please give back the deeds to Fatal and fix the estates, simply meet your responsibilities.
     

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    Last edited: Sep 4, 2014
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  2. Sep 4, 2014 #2
    HoloSquad

    HoloSquad

    If MA keep going down this road path screwing players over, unfair gaming, No VU updates etc.
    Then cheat engine will only be the begging.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2014
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  3. Sep 4, 2014 #3
    misao

    misao

    Just curious when did they remove the deeds? Although unlikely they might offer some compensation with something like a nova fragment(sounds about right coming from MA)
     
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  4. Sep 4, 2014 #4
    Tass

    Tass Administrator

    About two weeks ago. The bugged estates are probably still in game, Ajoite Game Reserve around 125200,
    85900 and Kynaite Game Reserve I around 125200, 85900, maybe someone on NI can look for them.

    Both estates existed on from the launch of Next Island in December 2010, both bugged from the beginning. According to our information the bug was minor, just something like a "link" missing between the actual estate and the terminal to control the estates, an according fix was added in the development environment but for unknown reason never made into the game.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2014
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  5. Sep 4, 2014 #5
    RAZER

    RAZER Custom title ... uh ...

    This could potentially mean that MindArk can withdraw and remove every item in game if they just tell us that is was not meant to be in the game anyway. "Oh RAZER, that Mod Fap and Mod Merc you just bought were not supposed to be in game, so we removed them from your inventory, we are sorry about that."

    I see a big issue with that to be honest. It is not about this sale specific but about what it means in the long run in general.

    Whats next, will they remove the items that were obtained in the past as a result of a repair bug (which duplicated the items) and after they have been sold 100's of times? Are you sure you do not have any of those items ?
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2014
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  6. Sep 4, 2014 #6
    McCormick

    McCormick

    I loved that design of the "main town" of Next Island in that screenshot.

    It felt like a true fort, a small outpost in the future. Fort Fury is close to it and always was, whiel the rest failed by now.

    I only flew to NI to recieve the free noob pistol and the free colorator...nothing else, as I would have died because of boredom on that planet.

    I remember the days, when those beach huts got announced...and NI totally failed.

    I didnt even know it had LAs...yet that they were bugged...and got removed after various sales.
    Selling bugged items was always risky inside of Entropia...unlimited laser-sights anyone ?
    Muhahahahahahaha... x'P

    In short, FUMA !
     
  7. Sep 4, 2014 #7
    Tass

    Tass Administrator

    There seems to be confusion whether the term "were never approved for sale" by MA can be interpreted as "you are not allowed to sell the items you bought and currently own".

    To me the case is pretty clear: "were never approved for sale" can only mean that they were not approved to change ownership from Planet Partner to player. "are not approved for trading" could mean something else. Also, in a support case regarding this issue MindArk says: "However MindArks policy is that all trades are final".

    And then, MindArk learned that these items are in game many years ago. Over the years multiple support cases have been filed by multiple people. If these items indeed "were not approved for sale" and if the proccess/contract said MA has to approve a change of ownership from PP to players then it would have been MindArk's responsibility to approach the PP to resolve the issue as soon as they learned that these items actually do exist in game.

    MindArk didn't, MindArk failed, multiple times, for years, even after the items were sold from the first owner to Narfi. All MindArk did was trying to outsource the responsibility to players by asking them to resolve the issue with the Planet Partner, perfectly knowing that it's actually not an issue between the PP and the players but and issue between the PP and MindArk, also perfectly knowing that the PP is practically not existing anymore.

    And then, after years and multiple they've decided to take action and simply remove the items a player paid thousands of dollars for from the game?!? That's not a solution for the problem, that's an escalation of the problem. It's absolutely inacceptable and MindArk should solve this issue asap and before it might be taken to platforms that are clearly not EU community sites, only for the sake of protecting current players/ investors already, more so for a fair treatment of the people involved in this misery.

    Otherwise I want to have all my deposits back immediately, they were not approved by my dog...

    Missions to Ancient Greece and back are actually quite refreshing, compared to "Iron" missions...
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2014
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  8. Sep 4, 2014 #8
    McCormick

    McCormick

    Oh yes, I did Ancient Greece once, to buy these swords and the huge Axe...Toga ftw !

    While I somehow enjoyed running through cyclops people...still liking the idea of not beeing able to use laser weapons...the whole time travle idea by using crystals is/was still far from perfection.

    "The Thing" was great. No matter how you turn it. Even if it was faaaaar from my ideal called Calypso.

    Then again, most of the so called "quests" in this universe are so diversified and full of story,
    just like a piece of bread.
     
  9. Sep 4, 2014 #9
    EnzoMarius

    EnzoMarius

    Posted on PFC and now here so others can see my side of the start of all this...

    As one of the members of this whole issue from the beginning there are a few things I would like to make straight and clear right now…

    The Land Area deeds were never in the hands of Neverdie from my knowledge. For a time I was contracted by David Post and his team over at NextIsland to assist in growing the community and increasing some foot traffic for the planet due to mu community manager experience for other online games. During this time I was given the land area deeds by one of his employees (Meg) and was told by her that they should be working soon and to start hosting events there. I assumed these were given to me with David Post knowing since Meg worked for him. I waited months for them to be fixed and working so I could get things rolling there. But as most of you all know David Post pretty much lost interest and pulled out of NI development and let go his entire NI team in New York.

    At this moment here I was sitting with two Land Area deeds on a somewhat dead planet. I spent over a year sending in support cases to MA to try and get these working. (BTW from working in the game engine myself for a time the fix needed to make these work again would take less than 2 hours of actual work). I was always told to go speak to DP about getting them working since he was the planet partner. But this still did not work because there was no way to get in contact with DP anymore from my end. I was also NEVER told by MA in my support cases that the deeds were never intended for sale or trade… Just want to make that clear…

    So here I sat with useless deeds to some nice big LA’s that might work one day. As I rarely if ever play in EU I figured why not get them in the hands of someone else who might have a better chance to get them working due to his long standing in the game. An agreement was worked out between myself and Narfi and I traded him the deeds to try to get them to work and to try and bring some life to NI.

    After this it was all on Narfi what he did with them. Get them fixed, sell them, keep them forever… It was out of my hands. He knew it would take some effort and be a risk but a small risk sometimes has a great reward.

    So there is my side of things. Pick it apart and blame me if you wish.

    MA should never have just removed the deeds from Fatal. Again it is a very simple and easy fix for them and might have brought some life to a plane that is pretty much just eating up server space for them. But no they chose to handle things in a disruptive way and cause havoc in the game.

    Also to make it clear again NeverDie had NOTHING to do with these deeds at all… It was all David Post (thru Meg) and me…

    -Enzo
     
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  10. Sep 4, 2014 #10
    nutrageti

    nutrageti

    well this sucks...shitstorm clouds are gathering
     
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  11. Sep 5, 2014 #11
    mastermesh

    mastermesh

    just another repeat of Mindark having no clue about how to do estates... They keep screwing them up over and over and over...

    Remember Justin's promise to upgrade booths? What about the promises to flip the apartments all back around the right way after vu 10 that never happened? Can't tell you how many broken estate threads I've seen in various forums... and that's just the active participants that actually take the time to post about that stuff online.

    As far as ownership goes... your avatar owns nothing on the servers... Mindark proved that when they changed the deeds to remove the word owner and put holder on them, at least on the ones that did say owner previously... nowadays they just leave the deeds blank or very vague worded in item info screens like they are doing with compets, auds, etc.

    Kind of a harsh reality, but we pay for pixels on their servers and databases and if they want to change junk on the databases or servers, they can and do freely without having to get any permission from you whatsoever. Real Crash Economy at work.

    As mentioned on the pcf thread, this whole situation reminds me of DA Manager's use of booth deeds as collateral when he was not authorized to use them that way... Maybe Mindark will deal with this situation in a similar way they dealt with that one? (did they ever really deal with that aspect of that issue or did they just do away with DA Manager because of scannergate as that happened around the same time?)

    Ironic that DA Manager was associated with Neverdie Studio as was the original owner of the broken deeds in question - I think not... Guess the 'virtual world war' continues....
    Also, it's quite funny watching how much the mods on pcf bend their own rules so darn much in cases like this when they are so strict with them on much smaller situations...
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2014
  12. Sep 5, 2014 #12
    mastermesh

    mastermesh

    http://legal.entropiauniverse.com/legal/eula.xml
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implied_warranty
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As_is
    In other words, Mindark should probably get those LAs running ASAP or else they face a major lawsuit potentially... but that lawsuit would do no good really due to their escape clauses in the eula, etc.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2014
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  13. Sep 5, 2014 #13
    mastermesh

    mastermesh

    probably won't help much... but here's a few old threads and things that might be relevant to any lawyer the deed holder might obtain. Feel free to add more if you have em. Not sure how else to help persuade Mindark to "do the right thing"... (any lawyer willing to take this kinda thing on is gonna probably need all the ammunition they can get, lol. (However, seriously they might be able to turn it in to a class action suit potentially, especially with all of the various 'promises' Mindark made over the years and broke in regard to estates, especially after vu10 hit?))

    http://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/f...-and-the-Law&p=3070871&viewfull=1#post3070871

    http://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/f...-EntropiaLaw&p=2162359&viewfull=1#post2162359

    http://entropiarelated.wordpress.com/2013/02/12/random-links-related-to-virtual-theft-crime-and-law/

    http://books.google.com/books?id=gQQjRmGKOgEC&lpg=PA109&ots=GcKPupZIMm&dq=mindark lawsuit&pg=PA108#v=onepage&q=mindark lawsuit&f=false

    http://www.academia.edu/532868/Gregynog_2011_-_Virtual_Worlds_MMORPGs_and_EULAw

    http://entropiarelated.wordpress.com/2011/06/05/consumer-rights-in-entropia-universe/

    http://web.archive.org/web/20110702.../2009/09/25/second-life-sued-in-class-action/

    http://www.entropiaforum.com/forum/eu-general-discussion/199329-can-mindark-sued.html

    http://www.entropiaforum.com/forum/wishlist/205321-ownership.html - never owned an LA myself, so not exactly sure if the 'owner' to 'holder' change on item info screens impacted those deeds on next island impacted by this whole thing, and/or when that change was implemented exactly.

    However, it's highly likely that that change may have happened after these Next Island deeds were created? That'd take some investigation for sure, but it might possibly be relevant to a lawyer trying to take on Mindark? I know that the owner to holder change happened to apartment deeds a couple of years before the same thing was done to the clds... and that both changes were done after participants already owned the deeds in question, so it's possible that LAs have the same issue going on? Not sure and cannot verify since I've never owned an LA. I mention this because the implied 'ownership' of deeds in game would definitely probably have something to do with this whole mess and why it's an issue... also possibly be something that Mindark has potential to be sued for as class action type suit? However, if someone actually was able to take on Mindark on a massive scale like that over something like this, I suspect out of court settlement would likely be the end result as Mindark would just pay off the deal instead of trying to acknowledge any wrongdoing legally in a court document, much the same way that they've compensated folks for various bugs over the years. (posting link since that compensation thing being done in the past might be relevant to a lawyer or particpant trying to get Mindark to "do the right thing" in regard to this situation)
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2014
  14. Sep 5, 2014 #14
    McCormick

    McCormick

    Also always interesting to SEE, that usually 90% of the community (99,99% of the internet) will never ever know about such Entropia-Incidents.

    The Zhorgul incident came into my mind for example :

    His LA (fertilizer, shed etc.) got all undergrounded and unaccessible for more then 4 months(!)
    [06-04-2007 to 10-09-2007]

    http://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?77856-MA-Doesn-t-care-about-your-investment

    And I wouldnt really count the 20.000$ zinc of hell, that got "introduced" 5 years later, as a compensation...

    206k-Zinc.jpg
     
  15. Sep 5, 2014 #15
    NotAdmin

    NotAdmin Administrator

    I'd recommend anyone to be extremely careful investing in this "game". I invested quite a bit of money in taming skills and equipment, only to find out that MA disabled the whole system FIVE years ago, and it's still not back. My "investment" in the meantime is stuck in this cesspool, as naturally nobody will want to buy it as long as the taming system is not back. Considering the system most likely will drastically change from its old implementation, it'll remain to be seen whether or not any of the old tools and skills will have any worth whatsoever when Pokemon-Pets is released.

    As for getting screwed with estates, this wasn't the first and won't be the last time. The same date taming was canned, all estates changed as well. Land Area owners suddenly found the LA they purchased at a prime location (like Atrax Beach) moved, with all the advantages gone. Likewise, Lykke and myself bought a shopping booth right next to a TP, and after the VU it was hidden in some remote building far from the same TP it used to be next to. At least they compensated Atrax Beach somehow, but Lykke and I were essentially told to "live with it".

    Investing in Entropia Universe can be rewarding for sure, but at the same time, you risk that your investment is rendered worthless overnight, with absolutely fuck all you can do about it, as MA is and will always be Judge, Jury, and Executioner of other people's money. And somehow the Swedish authorities let them get away with it.

    So thanks, but no thanks. My future investments will be made in Scotland; not in Sveedun.
     
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  16. Sep 5, 2014 #16
    leeloo

    leeloo cOloRmAnIaC

    "And to avoid further confusion attached to the deeds" ... awww yes .. what about "this item can not be traded" that would have been sufficent as well .. no need to remove them.. imho one of the worst bogus MA has done until now .. they need to give the deeds/LAs back!
     
  17. Sep 5, 2014 #17
    HoloSquad

    HoloSquad

    Well they terminated SEE, MA let them go why can't they do same with next island david post
    Solved that's all their is to it. No need for that twat David Post.
     
  18. Sep 5, 2014 #18
    NotAdmin

    NotAdmin Administrator

    They did not exactly terminate SEE. They ended up having to pay SEE a substantial amount of money, for reasons "officially" unknown.
     
  19. Sep 5, 2014 #19
    Yao-Te

    Yao-Te

    what's the unofficially reasons?
     
  20. Sep 5, 2014 #20
    McCormick

    McCormick

    [​IMG]
     
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